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You're listening to the I am an artist podcast from Inspire Culture, Learning and Libraries. This podcast is hosted by Annie Warren. During the series, Annie talks to artists from the project and also members of the Inspire team in a bid to share valuable insights and learning gained from the project.

Welcome to episode two of the I Am An Artist podcast. I'm your host, Annie Warren, and today I'll be talking to Lawrence English and Rachel Scanlon, two of the artists working on the project. Lawrence English is a self-taught artist and illustrator from Nottingham. He began his endeavor as an artist through bands he played in from the age of 15, creating the artwork that surrounded these projects. For I Am An Artist, Lawrence worked with children from Redgate Primary Academy, especially school, for children aged three to 11 with special educational needs and disabilities, or SEND.

Rachel Scanlon is a Nottingham-based visual artist working with children and young people in and out of school settings with care experience, SEND needs, and early years. For I'm an artist, Rachel was commissioned to work with Bracken Hill Primary School, whose aim is that all pupils achieve, progress, and grow in an environment where they're safe and happy. Welcome to the podcast, Lawrence and Rachel. Hi. Hi. Hi. Lovely to have you here in our podcast studio. So let's begin by talking about the work you've done with the groups involved in the project.

So Rachel, you worked with school children from Bracken Hill Primary School. How did you get on working with your group and what kind of stuff did you get up to? Yeah, it was really nice group that I had. We used the school hall, so it's in the middle of the school. And I brought lots of different sensory materials and just let them explore that, have a go at things, try things out. And then each week I brought some extra materials. So there was a familiarness to the materials that they knew from the week before, but there was also something different. And I just let them...

explore them and be curious and try things out and just saw what came of that. So it's quite nice to have quite an open project. didn't quite know how it was going to turn out, but it was sort of their decision making and their processes that led us to our end product. Interesting. What kind of materials did you bring? Lots of sort of fabrics and different textures and tactile things, lots of like natural wood slices and little elements to build and create with.

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got a structure that's a den that you put together and it makes a sort of dome shape. things like having a go with that. And then it became this house and then they all started role playing and becoming different characters of family. And so on was a dog. And then they tried to get the teachers and the adults involved, which is really lovely. Amazing. Did the adults join in? Yeah, they did. then, but then they were, the children wanted that again next week. And I was like, actually I'm bringing something different next week. And then obviously.

They were a bit disappointed, but then it was like, actually, this is great too. So we got to have a go with clay a different week. It had a projector, so we got to make shadows and put the sculptures that we made in front of the light and cast different shadows on the wall. And then they could interact with the shadows differently. just paint, but painting with sort of cars rolling through paint and balls rolling through paint and just having a go at lots of different stuff. Amazing. So yeah, just all kinds of different things happening. that's so interesting. And what was the artistic outcome or what was the...

that was presented at the end of the project? We made a sort of plinth to display a sort of mini gallery. I'm really interested in scale and perspective and how that plays with your imagination and sort of as the audience you interpret things differently when things are a different size. So we managed to make a sort of mini gallery with lots of what they'd made over the week in that gallery and on the plinth. So it was quite sort of like nice self-contained unit and then lots of photos and we had to torch in the exhibition.

nice so that people could interact and cast shadows while they're in the exhibition and lots of photos recording the processes. That's really cool, so kind of interactive for people experiencing the exhibition. Yeah, so hopefully they get a bit of a feel of it, sort of taster. Oh, that's really lovely. That sounds really great. And so, Lawrence, you worked with schoolchildren from Redgate Primary Academy. Can you tell us a little bit about that? Yeah, of course. I've kind of always been really interested with like big busy scenes.

paintings and stuff like that. So I wanted to kind of facilitate these workshops to kind of create a co-collaborative, co-created mural where I kind of produced in advance, like a load of wooden boards that kind of put together, a big picture of a woodland scene. that bringing them into the sessions, we could all work through different exercises of different accessibility levels to produce.

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different pieces of art. So everyone had their own contributions to then kind of collage them on to the mural and build up this really vast piece of art that could then be displayed. And yeah, the idea was, was inspired by kind of artists that do vast scenes like, like where's Wally and things like that, or kind of like Dutch artists like Gruegel and things like that, that just paint really intricate, intricate scenes that tell a story. I kind of wanted

to do a collaborative thing where everybody contributes and tells their own little stories within this bigger picture that kind of everybody feels like kind of affiliation to by the end and can sort of see all their own contributions within it. That's really cool. And what kind of stuff did you get up to in the workshops? I guess based on initially I wanted to do just lots of kind of illustration tasks and stuff and get everybody drawing, but based on the sort of needs kind of found.

Actually, maybe it had to be lot more sensory than that. So I kind of went in with lots of quite sort of stripped back kind of sensory kind of drawing tasks. So, you know, I had a lot of kind of drawing guidelines or kind of coloring sheets where they could kind of like, you know, just get involved with sort of the exercise just by, you know, even just finger painting or just painting on these illustrations that I'd done in advance. And then we'd all cut them out together and then stick them onto the mural. it'd still be contributing something cohesive.

but at any level to suit them. That sounds really amazing. Great, thank you. So I know the project began with a training package for all of the commissioned artists to take part in. Do you think that the training helped to prepare you for the work that you did with the specialist schools? Yeah, I think it more or less did. Especially we did a training session with Darrell and Co. that was more fitting to what we ended up doing. Yeah, and it gave a really good base level to how to approach.

approach a situation like that, I would say. His training was really tailored for special educational needs and disabilities and kind of focused on the groups that we work with. Yeah, it was really good. know, it kind of sort of said to me, obviously, just be as broad and flexible as possible and, you know, which I've maybe kind of maybe considered to the extent I needed to and kind of made me realize, yeah, just, you know, approach it.

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highest level of accessibility needs and then work from there. And yeah, it was really valuable information, really. Yeah. Had either of you worked with these kind of targeted groups before or was it new for both of you? I have. I've done quite a lot of work with SEND. I'm using kind of Reggio Emilia, which is a sort of early years ethos, keeping things open and exploring and learning through play and using that with early years and with SEND children. So I kind of came with a bit of background knowledge from that.

Yeah, I don't know you work with specialist children or children whatsoever. it was really, really interesting. was definitely being dropped in the deep end to an extent, but it was like, it went really well with the kind of information I had in about it. was definitely enough that, you know, it must have been enough because it didn't feel like it didn't feel doomed or anything. So I felt prepared. I felt as prepared as I was.

as I was ever going to be. yeah, it was good. I think that's the best way to learn though is to get dropped in at the deep end and just have a go and just go for it. And then obviously you responded to them seeing what they needed or any input or any access levels to be changed or altered. You were responding in real time and there and then. Yeah, for sure. You just got to be intuitive. You just got to know, you got to prepare as much as can, but then you you just got to be also adaptable in the moment. And I kind of knew that it was going to be like that.

So it wasn't too jarring. Yeah, it sounds like there's a real balance between preparing and obviously having background knowledge as much as you can, but then at the same time being prepared to kind of go with the flow a little bit and be flexible as well as having been prepared, not like sticking too rigidly to the preparation. Yeah, yeah. So you totally got to do both. I ended up preparing quite a lot because I wanted the outcome to be obviously a particular thing, but I had a particular vision. I wanted to get out of it. But then obviously I wanted to...

that vision whilst it simultaneously being extremely flexible. So it was kind of an interesting duality of both of those things. Yeah, I always find I have just massive IKEA bags of stuff that I bring and then it's like, how much do I put out? How much do I need? And it's that being flexible in the room at the time and deciding how much do we need to bring something else at this point maybe and it's sort of just trusting your instincts and reading the room. It's good to have all that stuff isn't it? Because it's like, know, it's better to sort of have it and not need it. Yeah.

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And, you know, yeah, so I ended up, I ended up, yeah, there being a lot of stuff in it that got within the budget. But then, I barely touched it, but it was sort of like, it felt like I still needed to have that there. And you might have needed it, like had something on a different way you might, you very well might have. Yeah, and I just wanted to be able to offer things if, know, luckily, most of the children were quite engaged most of the time with what was presented. But then it's always, you know, felt really important just to have as many alternatives as possible. And I found in my class, a couple of the boys,

were more into doing stuff on their own. So whereas I had a big, well, a group of people really interacting together and learning and playing together, there was a few individuals that just needed to sit on their own and have small things that just sort of entertain themselves and play and build and sculpt, but on their own. So I sort of like, well, I know I need separate stuff for them and the big sheets of fabric and then building for these guys and lots going on in the room. It's quite nice.

actually really relates to my second question, which is about whether or not you adapted the workshops to get the best from the participants. So it sounds like you both did sort of adapt the workshops as you went on. Can you tell us a little bit about that? Yeah, I had this sort of in the hall, four sort of carpets or rugs down with materials on. So one of these rugs each week had the same materials on so that they had that familiarity. And if they wanted to, so some of these

children that liked being more individual could go and sit on that with feathers and wood that they'd used before and replay with that that they'd done the week before. And then some of the other children were more into doing whatever's new, what have you got that's new, know, show us what's in your bag Rachel, get it all out and yeah, let's see what you've got. And some children really like getting messy and some don't, so it's just sort having different areas for that to happen. And then things with the clay at one point I was like, this looks great. And then you turn around and come back and they've changed it.

Oh, okay. But it's sort letting that happen, letting them squash things that looked amazing or remake stuff or paint over everything. And it ends up with hand prints everywhere whenever you do things. So yeah, it's like, okay, let them do hand prints. That's fine. But taking it in their own direction. And it sounds like getting to know them over the course of the workshop as well. lets you know in which ways to adapt them. Did you find that to you, Lawrence? Yeah. One moment, it was like...

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I was building towards this particular thing. was like, I'd only prepared so much in terms of like, this is the thing that needs to happen. But then as the days went along, was kind of like realizing I wanted to make sure that it didn't become repetitive. like, you know, I realized I was like, okay, I need to think of something else. So sort of just was like, okay, what if I just gather all the leaves in my garden? And because we were making a woodland scene anyway, so I just brought in all these bags of leaves as like, how about this? And so I just put loads of leaves on the table and then we were just painting the leaves and stuff and like sort of printing them out on paper or...

directly onto the onto the mural itself. And it was just like, I was kind of like sort of, sort of in between sessions rather than during the sessions kind of like, how can I prepare something else as well as I was kind of obviously also trying to be adaptable within the sessions as well. But as he was saying, it's kind of did a bit of both. Yeah, sounds really good. Sounds great. And can you tell us a little bit about the things that you found the most challenging about working with your groups or also potentially the settings that they were working in? Yeah, I found

Because I was in the school hall, a few children, when they leave the classroom, get bit anxious. So there was a few children that came for a little bit and then would go back to their classroom or wouldn't come at the beginning or would come towards the end. It's that kind of realizing their needs is very different and using the space differently. Because often they come into the school hall for dinner. That's why they have their school dinners. And it's like, this isn't dinner. sort of, yeah, the way the space is used and how they interpret that space can be...

challenge. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, I sort of found one of the main challenges was just kind of getting the opportunity to almost explain the sessions because lots of the learners were kind of coming in drips and drabs and also kind of coming in one just to get straight on with stuff and we very much kind of needed one-to-one kind of interaction to maybe receive the information. Austin didn't have the opportunity to kind of address the entire

workshop, kind of have to go by what go around what I want. And so it kind of made it a little bit difficult to kind of give a big introduction at the beginning, like this is what we're doing. But it was, you know, I just obviously, again, had to adapt to that situation and kind of go around everybody and just sort of be like, so this is what we're doing. But not sure if at any point I was like, hello. Yeah, so little bits of like repetition of

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the task at hand and catching everyone up to the same point. Yeah, I definitely found it was a lot more kind of like one-to-one. So guidance was the way to go with these guys. That makes a lot of sense. And how about the most rewarding aspects? I think just seeing how excited they can get about being creative and learning and finding fun ways to use familiar materials as well. That's quite nice. And I really loved how they tried to get all the teachers involved.

and like inspire staff that came along. They're like, right, you're going to come in the den, you can sit in the corner there and you're going to do that and hold this torch and yeah, just giving everyone jobs. It's really sweet. That's so lovely. Yeah, I guess for me, was more just more seeing, seeing like my kind of concept mural kind of come together over time because I kind of came up with it. So I had the idea when we went kind of applied for the, for the project kind of as part of the creative brief and then.

to then put all those work into the prep and like half design, like the mural itself, to then actually see it kind of build and come to fruition based on all their contributions was just like really nice and satisfying, especially kind of seeing that they were resonating with it and kind of, you know, seeing their own creations on this big mural that we made together, it was just really lovely. Yeah, that's so great. And so in hindsight, is there anything that you would deliver differently or do differently about the delivery of the workshops?

For me, just maybe making sure I just had more variation in exercises in advance. It all worked out fine in the end, rather than having a panic half midweek, or like, need something else. it's all ridiculous. But knowing that now, obviously just knowing just more variation in tasks, is maybe I do that, but you know.

Yeah, it's got to be autumn, guess. Yeah, that's really interesting. interrupted you totally. That leaves a lot of sense, I think maybe if I did it again, I might use the classroom as the space, but then they wouldn't have that to go back to. It swings around about, isn't it, as to what's the best option? Because at least they knew they could go back to class if they needed to get away, sort of headspace. Yeah.

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think I'd bring the same materials and just let them go for it. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense too. It would be interesting to see the workshops in a different setting maybe, or to see it in the classroom setting and how that would affect the outcomes and like the behaviors of students if they kind of felt more familiar right from the start I suppose. Yeah, pros and cons of every space. Being in the hall was really nice because it was the middle of the school and there's lots of windows. So in a way everyone got involved.

teachers and classes and children would be like, look, what's going on in there? It's quite a nice thing to be like, we're all artists, we're doing art. That's lovely. I suppose we talked about this a little bit already, but is there anything that you've enjoyed the most about the project kind of as a whole? I get to know the other artists as well, it's really nice. I do know other creative people from around where I am, but it was quite refreshing to kind of meet up with other artists at very different stages in their kind of...

I create a journey or whatever, because we're all very much at different stages in what we're doing and kind of have quite different practices as well. So it's just quite interesting hearing about other people's I think the training days at the beginning were really useful because it was a good chance for us to meet each other and chat and find out about each other's practices and what's going on. And yeah, it's been really nice to sort of form a little group. Yeah, yeah, definitely. And also all the support we got from Inspire themselves, because I think we've got a lot of freedom to do.

whatever we wanted to do with it really, but with the kind of support and guidance to, you know, guide it where necessary or ask questions we sort of needed to. So yeah, it was all really enjoyable. Yeah, it sounds really good. I mean, I had a similar experience on the I'm a writer project where I don't know if you guys have this experience too, but I think sometimes with writing, can be like very solitary as a writer. And then suddenly we had this opportunity to meet up with other writers and talk about, you know, sometimes you can, if you're doing a creative practice, you can sit in your own.

on your own in a room and just think that you're the only one doing it. And then suddenly we had this other group of people to meet and bounce ideas off. And it felt like a really good way to, yeah, like broaden your own creativity as a practitioner as well. So it sounds like you guys had a similar experience. Yeah, it's really refreshing. And so finally, is there any advice that you would give to other artists who are thinking about working with neurodiverse families or children or perhaps specialist schools?

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I would say go for it and have lots of ideas in the bag, have things physically in the bag and bring out what you need, when you need them and have lots of access points. I think that's always a really important thing. So some people might want to get really stuck in, some people might just touching the feathers might be the start of their creative journey and sort of allowing that to happen and not forcing anyone to do anything. I think it's just letting them dip in and out as they choose. really important. I think just understanding the group.

as much as you can in advance is great as well. Just understanding, yeah, how flexible you need to be and yeah, and all those things. Like just make sure you have everything as much as can ready to go as possible. And also I found because a lot of my stuff that we were doing was very paint-based, just be prepared for like the sheer amount of mess that gets created. At the end of the sessions, I was sometimes like, oh my God. I was like cleaning up for like over an hour.

So I feel there was never a way around that, but just kind of be prepared for that. if there is any, I don't know, put a newspaper on the table or something, know, collect one up. But yeah, that is definitely a bit of advice I would give. I love that. think, yeah, go for it and access points and put newspaper down on the table. Yeah, I went back through the week to the same school, which was really nice.

I hope you don't spank me down on the table. You've adapted your practice. Oh, that's amazing. Thank you both so much for coming in. That was really, really interesting to hear about the work that you've done. And yeah, thank you so much for your time. Thank you.

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You've been listening to the I Am An Artist podcast from Inspire Culture Learning and Libraries. I Am An Artist is the second stage of our I Am A Creator programme, which is funded by investment from Arts Council England through our status as a national portfolio organisation. To find out more about the project, our artists, the audiences who took part and the outcomes, you can visit our website at inspireculture.org.uk forward slash I Am An Artist.