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You're listening to the I am an artist podcast from Inspire Culture, Learning and Libraries. This podcast is hosted by Annie Warren. During the series, Annie talks to artists from the project and also members of the Inspire team in a bid to share valuable insights and learning gained from the project.

And welcome to episode three of the I Am An Artist podcast. I'm your host, Annie Warren, and today I'll be talking to Dan Donovan and Deborah Frith, two artists working on the I Am An Artist project. Dan Donovan is a freelance practicing and commercial artist. He enjoys all creative disciplines from photography to filmmaking and from graphic design to painting and music. Dan's belief is that everyone has an inner artist and his aim is to facilitate people's discovery of this fact. Dan was commissioned to work with Blydworth Memory Group.

a welcoming and friendly volunteer-led adult group based at Blydworth Library. They provide a social setting for people living with dementia, their carers, or anyone interested in meeting and chatting over a warm drink to see what services and support are available to them. Deb Raffrith considers herself to be an artist with a specialism in ceramics, but also explores other materials like metal, collage, decoupage, surface applications, or whatever else she can try. Deb's worked with residents from Bowbridge Court Care Home in Newark.

offering 24 hour residential and dementia care. The activities team for Bowbridge Court deliver a regular and varied program of entertainment and activities for their residents to take part in and enjoy. A warm welcome to the podcast, Dan and Debs. Hello. Hello. So let's start by talking about how you both prepared for working with older adults and people living with dementia. Were there any things in particular that you did in the planning stages of your workshops?

Yeah, we had some training that Inspire provided, which was great. We saw some warm heartfelt presentations from people with dementia who did little videos explaining their story. And it kind of reinforced to me that if you have dementia or early stages Alzheimer's, it doesn't mean that you can't communicate, you know, and that you're not

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coherent. My mother-in-law is Alzheimer's now actually. But in her early stages, she was always very good at masking or covering up if she was confused. So I think all that helped me prepare really for working with this group. Yeah, useful to hear from people who have experience of it so you can understand from their point of view.

and what it's like a little bit so you can kind of prepare in that way. Yeah, definitely, that makes sense. How about you Deb, were there any things that you did in particular? Well, for the dementia side of it, it wasn't so much a thing for me, the training, because my dad had dementia, but it was Alzheimer's with Lewy bodies, so his dementia was different. He didn't lose his mental capacity, he lost his physical capacity. So dementia comes in all shapes and forms.

And if you're going into that sort of arena, that's what you take into account. That they're all individual and how it's affecting them is a different story for each of them. And for me, it was very much like a normal workshop. You go in and you subconsciously suss out people's needs as you go along. So it was a very similar situation. I mean, I got involved with Inspire because they also did CPD for people with

disabilities, which is what I was really interested in. I used to have a class where I had learning difficulty people and I just wanted to delve a bit more into that and feel like I've got more tools to deal with that sort of situation. But you know I ended up with Bowbridge and I was very happy to choose Bowbridge because of my dad's know experience with my dad.

And same as Dan, I like thinking that there's an artist in everybody and that's what I was about in that situation. Yeah, that's really lovely. That's really interesting, isn't it? Because it's like a similar approach to what you take to workshops with any kind of people is that you're trying to make sure everyone is involved and cater to everyone's needs. And as you said, dementia and Alzheimer's, they affect people so differently, like everyone's an individual. in that way, it's the same as any workshop that you'd be catering to.

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all kinds of individuals. That's really interesting. I know that you went out to meet the groups first for an introductory session before you started the workshops. And how did you both find that meeting the groups beforehand? Well, I didn't meet anybody, to be honest. No, I went down, saw the area that we were going to be working in, met the staff there and just got to get a feel of the building. They showed me all around.

So you got a feel of what it was like there and it was a really lovely place. They obviously really cared about the residents, put the residents first. Yeah, I met people in general. I didn't meet people I was going to be working with. And I think that's because of the issue of dementia that you might think, I'll work with, say, Keith this week and then next week Keith doesn't want to do it because of the nature of the condition.

I think they just sort of wanted to just introduce me to the whole atmosphere. We went for a walk around the little garden that they've got, which is lovely. They showed me upstairs and when they were going for dinner and where we would be working. So as an overall general impression, it was really good from my point of view. Yeah. Was that helpful in planning the sessions? Like having seen the space and the garden and things like that? Yeah, because you need to know...

What facilities you've got, because like one of the sessions I did, I use flowers and plants from the garden and I knew what I could choose then and that it was safe enough for them to go out and do it. And then you know whether you've got water facilities, what tables you've got, what the areas like you're going to work in. So you need to know these sort of things before you go down and start. So you know what's available to you, what you can do with that.

Yeah, especially when you're an artist who works with all kinds of different materials, like knowing what you've got on hand or what's available is really useful, I suppose. And my sessions, I had to be careful of timing because it would have to stop because we were in the area where they would be having meals. So it had to stop in time for them to prepare for the dinner. Yeah. So there's that restriction as well. Yeah, time constraint. Yeah, that makes sense. How about you, Dan? Did you see the space or meet the group before? Yeah, I dropped in. It wasn't too far from where I lived.

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I wanted to go a week ahead and meet everyone. yeah, it was great. I actually took some of my own paintings. Some were abstract and some were figurative. And we talked about colors and responses to the paintings. it was very good humor. Everyone was very good humor and engaging.

And I thought, this is great. You know, it looks like we're going to have a good time with this group. Before I knew it, someone had, I thought I was just going to meet the people, you know, have some biscuits and coffee and be done. But before my time there finished, one of the assistants there just came out with some rolls of paper and some colored pens and said,

Well, can we start now then? know, I don't know if we can, should I make a phone call? yeah, so that first session, wasn't a session, it was just a meet and greet as far as I was concerned. Yeah, but almost turned into like a little introductory yeah, we had some pieces of work from that. That's lovely. that's really great. They couldn't wait to get started. that's the impression I was getting.

That's awesome. And so how did you both adapt your usual delivery methods to work with your group? So I know, Deb, we talked a little bit about how it was sort of similar to the approach that you would usually take, but were there any ways in which working with older adults or people with dementia or Alzheimer's was different to working with a usual group? Yeah, because their physical ability, the ability of them to

pick up pens, motor abilities, can be affected with dementia quite a lot. so you had to take into account the second session I did, we did acrylic paints. And for the less abled, I've got these big slip trailers. So I filled them all with paint. So all they had to do was squash them a bit and the paint would come out. So they were able to achieve.

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some sort of result through that. And then I've got other things like tools as well as just brushes. So thinking of a wider range that makes it more accessible for them to do mark making with. And the way that they perceive what they're doing, not putting constraints on you will paint a landscape.

But a lot of it was more abstract because it was just enjoyment of the actual physical task of what they were doing, which was just as important as the end product. So trying to persuade them to do something that I wanted them to do, I didn't do. I just said, go ahead, knock yourself out, fun. and most of them did, most of them did. Some need a bit of extra help.

But the assistance that were there, the care home assistance were just really good. And I'm making sure as well that they didn't do too much so that all the work that was produced was by the residents, which is really important to me. So it went really well, went really well. The first session was getting to know these sort of things. So pressing stuff into clay, because we did a first session where we used plants from the garden, pressing them into rolled out clay.

I had to keep an eye on them rolling out the clay so that it was usable, which was quite fun. Just getting them into using clay was good fun and then pressing the flowers in was also quite good fun. In that first session, you mentally, subconsciously assess people. But you can't hold on to that for the next session because you might have different people.

So, and you adapt every session you do. Yeah, so having so being very like nimble and adaptable in what you're doing from session to session, not planning too much what you're going to do. No, not being constrained, not giving them too many constraints. sort of, you know, some people see pieces of work and to them think, well, what's that about? for people that we're involved with, just...

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putting something on paper was an achievement, being able to do that and looking at it from that sort of perspective that it doesn't matter what it is, as long as they enjoy doing it. Yeah, they're very much that process, like not focusing on the end, focusing on the act of doing it. Yes, very much so. How about you, Dan? Were there any kind of ways that you adapted your workshop style to work with Bloodworth Memory Group? I don't think so, really.

I mean, certainly after meeting the group, I presumed my style of leading workshops and my ideas behind expressive painting, which is what we were doing, is all about detaching people from anything from the past or the future and just living in the moment. And I was really excited to work with this kind of group on that principle. I thought, well, this is what...

what we're going to focus on, the immediate, you know, we're not talking about accessing memories or thinking about where we're going. This is just the moment. And that's what I try and achieve anyway with my workshop. it was great to do that with this group in particular. And, you know, we talked about the journey of creating a piece of work as well. The journeys I always stress is the important part. Don't think

about where you're going with this painting, don't have any expectations, just enjoy the journey, you know, and then see what comes out at the end. Yeah, it sounds like your practice, as you say, it's really focused on the here and now anyway, like for every person. So that lends itself really well to a memory group because you don't have to remember things that are difficult in the past or that, you know, you don't have access to anymore. You're just focusing on what's happening now.

again, like Deb said, not focusing too much on the outcome, just the process of doing it now. Yeah, that's lovely. That makes a lot of sense. You mentioned being nimble at one point when you talking to Deb. Yeah. I have never thought of myself as nimble. Nimble in your practice, nimble in your adaptability. Not nimble in anything. Well, did you find that you had to be adaptable from session to session? Yeah, totally. Yeah.

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Did you feel like you kind of like, like Debs, you were talking about sort of letting them lead a little bit, not focusing too much on what you wanted from the session, but like letting people do what they wanted to do. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, the outcome was just the vehicle by which they had something to do. Yeah. Like Dan says, it was a process. Yeah. That was most important really. Yeah.

That's a really nice to And that's what creativity is about. It's not about going from A to B, it's about going from A to Y to W to whatever, whichever way you go. That's what creativity is. It's that serendipity moment when something comes together. Yeah, it's really interesting, isn't it? Because just like for everyone, that's what creativity is as well. But I think a lot of the time, like we think as people who like look at art or like consume art, we think that you have to have an end product, but actually that's not.

That's not really the point of it at all, generally speaking. What would you say were the main challenges during your time working with the groups? Yeah, for me, was practical issues.

So normally in my workshops, if we're doing communal painting in particular, I will get people moving around like a large table or a canvas on an easel. And this group, some of them weren't very mobile and some weren't mobile at all. So mainly it was a practical issue of how do I get around that, the fact that people are sitting quite far apart.

I mean, what was it like? 19 people, I think, in my group. So was quite a big table area. So, you know, we, for the communal painting sessions, I actually, had a couple of canvases that we passed around the room, which was quite nice because people on the other side of the table were observing what someone was doing and then it would...

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the painting would get round to them eventually and they would add their mark. That's good because then people can see the process of it getting to them, like building up to get excited for them. That's really nice. And then having the canvas move instead of the people is a really good way of getting around any mobility or practical issues. It got a bit messy, but we were prepared. We had overalls on it. It's part of fun, isn't it? Yeah.

And how about for you, Deb, what would you say were the most challenging aspects? A lot of it for me was keeping people happy mentally. Like I did have one chap that got stressed very quickly and it was managing his stress levels so that he felt comfortable enough to come and take part. Because people with dementia see the world in a different way and

I did the ceramic pieces and at first I was going to have them cut, making a pattern with the flowers and then cutting out the letters of their name with some cutters. And then I realized that they didn't cut the letters of their name out in an orderly fashion. It was all over the shop. And I kept some of them like that. I ended up so that they didn't cut out the letters, just made an impression of them. Because then you kept a lot of the textures that they'd made with the flowers from the garden.

And it reflected to me, that was a bit of a learning thing for me. It really reflected on how they see things. Like when we were on about going from A to B, they don't see things like that. They see things in a different way. So for me, it was interesting trying to pull that out. And the dinner time constraint was...

Yeah, it went very quickly, a lot of the sessions. But it was good, we mostly had outcomes from it. So, yeah, it's sort of like some sort of magic that you create. Well, that's such a nice way of putting it. And that actually leads on really well to my next question, which is about what were the most rewarding moments? Or did you have any really good moments with your groups that you'd like to share?

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with mine it was great that they just really enjoyed doing it. And the last session that I did was a collage session and a lot of it seems to me that they think collage is old fashioned, but you just use paper napkins split down and everything. And with dementia, you try not to overload them. But this session, I had a pile of all these different textured colored paper in the middle and they loved it.

and they were sticking and pasting. They really went to town with it and they just owned it, which was brilliant. How about you Dan? Rewarding moments? Rewarding moments. if you have any. Rather a lot, yeah. I forgot to say, one of the other challenges with this group was that some were non-verbal. And there was a couple in the group that didn't, you know,

didn't appear to be engaging or observing, but you know, I just carry on anyway. And when the canvases arrived at them and the communal piece, what I'd asked people to do was to add a shape of some sort, so a solid circle or a triangle or whatever shape they wanted. So the canvases went around the table and when they arrived at a particular lady who was nonverbal, she just straight away, she picked her

brush up and loaded it with yellow and painted it, confidently painted a yellow square. And then the canvas was taken from her and passed to the next person. And that was like, that is brilliant. That is absolutely a perfect example of, you know, the language of paint, really. And that person connected at that level at that point.

and her mark is still on that painting now. That's amazing. That's really lovely. Thank you for sharing. That's lovely. So what have you both enjoyed most about the project as a whole, which I know we sort of touched on a little bit already, but are there any things that you really enjoyed about the project just from start to finish?

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It was nice to be with new people. I mean, I lived in Cambridge for 30, 40 years. So when I moved up, it was nice to connect with people that talked properly, you know. Because I grew up around this area, so I'd missed the Northern accent. Not that we're really Northern, Deb, you're proper North. But, you know.

So yeah, it was nice to connect with a group of people that understood my accent, not that my accent is very broad anymore, it's always great to see people responding freely and exploring and having fun in pain. And this group was no exception. In fact, maybe some of them were more in tune with what I was suggesting or leading in the group.

That's interesting. So I don't know if that's because of their dementia or just people being people and being different, you know. That's interesting what you're saying about language and obviously words not the only language that we have. So sometimes kind of more abstract or figurative or artistic languages is like a different way of communicating and connecting with people.

which sounds like it really came through in your group a lot as well, like with that lady who's nonverbal. Yeah. That's really lovely as well that it's what was rewarding for you as well was like connection that you felt with people too. Cause like sometimes as artists as well, can get a bit, I don't know about you guys, but it can be solitary. Like you can be doing stuff on your own, like creating your own work. And then so to go out into a community of other artists and participants can be like a really rewarding aspect of it.

Community project. Yeah. It can be more rewarding than doing your own art at times. Definitely. Yeah. Which it can be soul destroying. But to connect with others and seeing people discover that they have untapped creativity is better than creating any painting. And as a facilitator,

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It was great that we had all the CPD training as well, like the safeguarding and all that, which is so essential for our sort of job. And from a professional point of view, meeting the challenge and meeting the challenge successfully so that you have a very good outcome for the participants as well as for the commissioners, something that was really worthwhile.

It's very satisfying that you achieve that and it's why you do it because you think, well, I want to be able to encourage people to be more creative because as you know, we've got a big mental health crisis and being expressive is so important. We are discovering that it's part of our need to be human beings to be able to express. Yeah, a very human thing to want and to be able to do that.

And like you were saying before Deb as well, like not focusing too much on the outcome. Because I think a lot of people feel like, I'm like in inverted commas, like not good at art because I can't, you can't do a certain thing. So yeah, like as you were saying, like showing everyone that like we are all naturally creative. Like we, there's no like being bad at it. It's just giving people a space to discover that artist as you talked about Dan as well. Like it's really great. So as my final question.

Is there any advice that you'd give other workshop facilitators who might be interested in working with or running groups or workshops for groups of people living with dementia, older people or communities otherwise underrepresented in the arts? Just not to be judgemental and well expect to be flexible about it. To expect to be mentally flexible.

as well as physically flexible. Because like for my sessions, we did something different every time. And make it the client-centered, if you'd like to be that sort of speak. You you're concentrating on what the needs of the people are and not what you want as a facilitator. You know, like start setting expectations to sort of go with the flow and be flexible. Yeah, that's brilliant. Thank you.

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Dan, any advice? Yeah, I would just say, you know, what I talked about really is just be aware of some practical issues that might arise, you know, with the physicality and mobility. And in some cases, communication, you know, particularly if you've got nonverbal people, you know, just deliver and...

they'll surprise you, you know. Try and see things from their point of view. Because like there were some that were quite regressed as to where they were in their mental time scale and taking that into account. Yeah, so taking everyone's needs into account, keeping going and being led by participants, not by what you want from the sessions being led by, yeah. You said it better than me.

I just repeated exactly what you said. Well, that's a really lovely note to end on. So unless there's anything that I've missed or any extra bits or points that you want to make that you didn't get to say, just thank you to Inspire for commissioning me. that's lovely. And thank you for commissioning me to do the podcast as well. And me too. We're all just very thankful. there's Jaffa cakes in the middle of the table. Thank you for the Jaffa cakes.

Our reward? Biscuits, eventually. Up-numps. brilliant. Well, let's eat some biscuits and we can end the podcast there. Thank you so much for coming into the studio. Thank you.

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You've been listening to the I Am An Artist podcast from Inspire Culture Learning and Libraries. I Am An Artist is the second stage of our I Am A Creator programme, which is funded by investment from Arts Council England through our status as a national portfolio organisation. To find out more about the project, our artists, the audiences who took part and the outcomes, you can visit our website at inspireculture.org.uk forward slash I Am An Artist.