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listening to the I Am An Artist podcast from Inspire Culture, Learning and Libraries. This podcast is hosted by Annie Warren. During the series, Annie talks to artists from the project and also members of the Inspire team in a bid to share valuable insights and learning gained from the project. Hi, and welcome to episode four of the I Am An Artist podcast. I'm your host, Annie Warren, and today I'll be talking to Dan Donovan and Rachel Scanlon, two artists from the project.

Now we've met you both previously on episodes two and three of the I An Artist podcast. It's great to have you back in the studio. For those out there joining us today who may have missed the previous episodes, you can listen again at inspireculture.org.uk forward slash I Am An Artist. But in the meantime, for the benefit of the audience, please could you both tell us a bit about your arts practice and what you did for the I Am An Artist project. Dan, shall we start with you? Yes. Hello. Hello. And Rach.

Yeah, I'm a freelance practicing artist. For years I've worked also as freelance graphic designer, photographer, filmmaker, musician. Bit of everything. I've probably missed something. That's good. All-encompassing, that's good. And what about your work on the I Am An Artist project? What group did you work with? It was the Blydworth Memory Group. And Rachel, how about you and your practice?

I'm also a visual artist. I've kind of come at it from a fine art background and now I work with children a lot and older people. A lot of my practice is to do with the Reggio Emilia ethos, which is about open-ended play and kind of following their lead and sort of letting them explore and be curious and bringing things that we see might inspire them further.

And my practice itself is to do with scale and perspective. So I like making things really big or really small and how that kind of transforms the viewer to think that either we're really small or really big, depending on what we're looking at. So I've made kind of child height pop-up books that kind of become this immersive environment, like a theatre set or a play or like in a book. And it's that kind of fantasy and reality and playing together. That's amazing. That sounds really fascinating. And who was the group that you worked with for the I'm an Artist project?

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I worked with Breckenhill Primary School, which is a special educational needs and disability school. Well, it sounds like you both have loads of previous workshop experience, but also that maybe this project offered you something a little bit new and inspiring different to do as well. yeah, sounds really fascinating. So in this episode, I'd like to ask you both about co-creation versus collaboration. So I'd love it if you could give us a definition of what your understanding of each one of those things is.

and how they differ from each other. Who would like to go first? No one would like to go first. Should we talk about co-creation first then? what is co-creation? I see it as we're all working together. It's not just like an artist as a teacher and children or participants as learner. It's kind of we're all learning together and we're all going through the same experiences and the result really depends on who's in the group and where that...

direction goes, it's all dependent on everyone in that room. That's kind of my theory. Yeah, I would say co-creation is co-creating. So, you know, it's not about a tutor or saying this is what we do, stick to this, you know, here's the grid, stay on the grid. think it's about the tutor or facilitator is just opening doors for their creativity and

they run with it and that is encouraged, you know, so. Yeah, so less about the facilitator kind of having expectations or teaching as such, but more everyone having an equal stake, is that right? I know, you know, if I'm working with a group, they will often step off the main track and deviate because they've come up with ideas and we've taken it somewhere else.

So maybe that would be co-creation, yeah. I don't know, it's a question still. Yeah, I think it's that idea as an artist having a kind of outline of a plan in our heads, but being willing to let them take it in a different direction if that's how it happens to go on the day. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense because for me I feel like collaboration on a project.

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Collaborating is where you have an outcome in mind and then you work together towards like an outcome. But it sounds like co-creation is much more about, like you said, Dan, kind of maybe going off the track a little bit if that's where it goes or if you're working with a group of people or participants letting, going with what comes up, which could be anything really, couldn't it? Is that kind of the difference between the two? I don't know. The comparison of collaboration, it's still...

For me personally, that would still come under co-creation. So they're quite similar things? In my mind, yeah. Collaboration and co-creation. I think with both co-creation and collaboration and what both of you said as well, it sort of sounds like there's not a hierarchy within it. So it's not the idea of somebody coming in and leading a group or teaching so much as facilitating.

and allowing a space for people to make something. Is that kind of the right track? Yeah, like we're all in it together. We're all going through the same experiences and seeing what's going to come out at the end. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah, there's a fine line and an overlap between the two probably. I know Inspire is saying that it's a new concept to them, but...

For me, it's something I've done for years. It's natural. I just didn't know that it had a label. Had a name, yeah, interesting. I'll get a t-shirt now. Yeah, we'll get merch now. So would you say... I'm a co-creationist. Yeah. That's interesting that that's something that you've always... That's always the way you've approached your... It just seems natural, yeah. Yeah. My thing is, we're doing workshops.

I'm not interested in teaching people how to accurately paint a picture of a cat or a scene, you know. I just want people to feel like, to explore, just explore in art. And you know, sometimes on my workshops, was quite early on, I will say, like I used to do one in Cambridge, it was like an eight week workshop. And I used to say, by week four, I don't even have to be here because, you know.

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You know, I'm here to help you activate the canvas, at the end of this course, you know, you won't need an instructor as such, you know, because you have found your way of doing your art, you know. Yeah, that's really important, isn't it? Because I think sometimes, obviously coming from the I Am A Writer project, what we found with participants on that project was that...

they didn't think of themselves as writers. they sort of, even though we believe that everyone is a writer, and as we were talking about as well, everyone is an artist, but it's almost like giving permission or making space for that co-creation to happen, I think is important, so people can get out of their own way, the idea that there is a right way to do it kind of thing. I think that's the thing, I think with children, often they are shown who's we're going to make today, who's we're going to create today.

they're shown an end product. And actually it's about the process and having a chance to explore and try things out and coming up with their own own product. To see that could be different, 30 different things in the class. Do you find children are more open? Children are really open, Totally, totally. Yeah, and they don't worry about going wrong. No. They don't have a fear. adults have got a bit of a fear of like, it might not look perfect or how I imagine it will look. just children will just go I often start.

But with that in my workshops, you know, I've got like a group of adults and they're all a bit nervous and a bit edgy and well, I can't draw, can't, you I'm not an artist, I don't know if I'll be any good at this, you know, and I'll say, take every one of you, if you were like one, two year olds around this table, and I put sheets of paper and paint and crayons on the table, none of you would be like, I can't draw, I'm not an artist, I don't paint. You just...

without invitation, pick up the crayons and start. I said, that's in us all when we're born, you know, so it's, so I think that's interesting if that's your experience with children. I think that's why I like working with adults because I'm undoing more than I've been educated into. you have to reintroduce that idea. Deconstructing.

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the word somewhere there, think. That can go on the merch as well. So, Rachel, did you, in terms of this idea of co-creation, that it was this, like Dan said, it was something he had sort of incorporated into his practice for a while, but maybe didn't know that that's what it was. Is this an approach that's new to you as well, or is something kind of familiar to you too? It's something I've been doing in my practice where possible. It's that kind of thing where sometimes you're brought in as an artist and then

the school or whoever you're working with, they want to have 30 of the same things on the wall, looking the same, looking correct and perfect. And actually, I don't want to bring that. I want to bring differences and nuances and, you know, let everyone have their own way of expressing things and making things. So, where possible. I always try and do participatory projects and co-created projects and getting children to have their voices heard, not just someone else telling them what they're going to do and they're just doing it.

Yeah. So for both of you, it sounds like this, again, it was like a familiar concept or familiar idea. Was there anything about doing this project that developed or changed your understanding of co-creation as a process? I quite enjoyed seeing the children that I worked with when we had Inspire staff come in and they really wanted to get them involved too.

There wasn't a chance for someone just to, you know, I'm just going to observe what's happening today. The children were like, you come and play, you know, we're going to do this. And just like dragged all the adults in the room into their sessions, which was really lovely. And their sort of imaginative play just became bigger and bigger. And they wanted to do like each week, they're like, are you going to bring that again? And it's like, no, I'm going to bring something different next week. And they kind of just want to do that again and again. And actually, yeah, the way I did it, it's had a familiar.

area with familiar resources on that I did bring each week and then I'd bring some other new stuff each time to kind of push them a bit and see what they did and let them have a chance to explore and be curious and play and see what came out of it. really lovely. So it's a mix of sort of having some things that were the same and familiar and then some things that were different and then seeing where it expanded to from that kind of thing. Yeah, yeah and letting them know that they can

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take it their own direction. Again, in some settings, you might start with some materials and here's an artist and we're to do something with materials and then someone else come in the room and say, no, you can't do that. you can do that. You if you want to put tape across the floor and go up the wall, you can do that. Yeah, that's great. That must be really interesting and really lovely for you as an artist as well to be able to say, yes, you can do that. Go for it. Do whatever you want. That's really great. It's not easy, you know, because you present, you know, you've got a canvas.

in front of them and you're giving them the free rein. And sometimes they do stuff and you go, I don't know about that. That was looking so good before you did that. And then I'm Dan, just stand back. This is you letting them take it where they want to take it. Yeah. So sort of like letting go of your own expectations, like constantly throughout it. You know, what I would do with that.

and what you have just done with that painting is making me uncomfortable. But the whole idea is like, it's not about correcting them, you know. And sometimes your learners will actually want some instruction. They will want you to say, how do I mix this color? How do I say, you know, you're in the wrong class here, I'm afraid.

You have the wrong tutor. But yeah, obviously there's some practical things that you help people with or even make suggestions. But I want them, I want to learn from them. I say you will learn from each other. Watch each other. Yeah, that sounds like as well that is something that's really important to co-creation is that the artist or the, I mean, everyone in the room is an artist, they? But the facilitator is the person who

you're also learning from them and your practice is also expanding from being part of the project as much as they're having experience in the project, you're experiencing it as well, which I think is really like lovely part of co-creation as well because everyone gets to experience it together as you said, Rachel. So how did you, yeah, how did you find the whole process in general? you find, there any aspects that you found difficult or challenging? Were there any rewarding parts as well? I find it great to let children have their voice heard.

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It's that kind of allowing something that maybe doesn't always happen in schools or in different settings that children can choose what they're going to do and choose the outcome. And it's through this kind of really fun, engaging sessions that are kind of in the middle of this school hall and teachers and pupils passing by and people would be like, what's going on in there? And they'd all come and have a look, which is quite interesting just to see how it reached further than just that class.

And then, yeah, just letting them have their voices heard and their experiences celebrated. And I think with the exhibition we've got, it's kind of seeing that, you know, little mini models that they made have now become pieces of art that going around libraries. That's really exciting for them and for me. Yeah, that's really cool. Yeah, there was one moment when the learners had been working on their own individual pieces, not communal pieces. And they activated their canvas with

charcoal lines connecting the edges of the canvas until it became like a really abstract drawing. And then the next thing I asked them was to fill in those spaces that they'd made with color. And I says, you don't have to stick within the line. You can ignore the line, but those lines are there and they will inform what you do in some way. And this one guy, he filled in

a lot of the blocks and created shapes, colors with what he was seeing within the lines. And he left lots of white areas. Now I have this real thing about leaving white unpainted sections in a canvas. I have this real issue with it. So I was like, okay, I don't want to be telling him what to do. But I just said to him, I just have...

issues with the white. I don't mind the white, but for me, it's it's territory that's available for you to put some expression on it. So we came to this agreement and he actually painted the white sections white with white paint. it was like, yeah, that was nice. a good compromise sounds like a get out, but it was a good solution. A good solution. Yeah, because

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I was happy because he actually covered his canvas with paint and he was happy because he hadn't lost the white space that he wanted in his pictures. True co-creation then. Yeah, yeah. He previously told us this story about a monkey he had when he was a young man and he bought a monkey home with him. He told us a couple of weeks before, and bear in mind that they

some of the group were having trouble remembering things. So I asked him this week after we'd done this, we were doing this painting and I said, are you, are you getting on, you know, are you going to tell us another monkey story? And he just stopped and he turned around and looked at me says, the only monkey in this room is the one looking over my shoulder at the moment. That's why it was lovely.

Totally relevant to the co-creation or is it? It was just a story. Yeah, it's nice, a really nice moment. he didn't see me as a tutor that needed respect. But I think that is about co-creation in a way, isn't it? Because it's about the atmosphere that you set up where it's not like you're the person who's got all the answers for everything. It's like you're there with them as well.

which I think is really lovely. The monkey on his shoulder. Yeah. And so, I know we've spoken a lot about co-creation in this episode, but do you think that there are any benefits to this way of working particularly and any challenges that you come across with this specific way of working? So co-creation and yeah, as we've been talking about, like not necessarily leading the room, but going with what...

whatever happens and experiencing things together. Again, I think the benefits part is that they all know that they're involved in this project. They've all had some input. guess the challenge is to make sure that there's not some people that are louder than others with that input. That the quieter people are involved and that their ideas are brought forward and celebrated as well as the sort of louder people. Co-creation can be, you can work

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just with one person in a group. So I guess it doesn't have to be about a group of leaders. If co-creation is probably as simple as if it's just me and you and I was saying, here's a blank sheet, here's a couple of suggestions, off you go, you know. So that would still be co-creation. Yeah, I think so. Yeah. But yeah, obviously, you don't want dominant people taking over. Yeah. When you are working in

a bigger group, how would you, are there ways in which you would make sure that everyone has an equal stake or not necessarily equal, but you would make sure that everybody does get their voices heard? Yeah, I think it's making sure when you're in that space that you've been to see everybody, you know, you've been around the room and checked everybody's involved in what they're doing and whether there's ideas that you can see a few people doing it, you can bring them together and doing that together and then see how that evolves. So I that's the interesting thing.

as it is, I'm an artist, we're all artists. It's when you put people together, your ideas bounce off each other, don't they? Oh, totally, yeah, start with isn't what you end up with. No, no, it's great. So it's having the space to do that and the freedom to do that. I learned so much. Yeah? Just, you know, people coming up with different ideas and you go, hmm, I can do it, I think. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Take that home and try that. Yeah, because there's so much, isn't there, in like, that's what...

creativity is, I know we talked about it in a different episode as well, but that's what creativity is, is when you bounce off other people and something else comes from that and that really, I mean, it's really lovely, I think, to connect with people and to not be creative in a vacuum, be creative with other people is a really nice thing. controlling dominant people can be a problem.

Online lessons were always great because you could just mute people. That's enough of you. And so finally, my final question would be, do either of you have any advice that you would give to other artists or art organisations or schools or groups wanting to pursue co-creation as a process or as an outcome of a project? I think it's to keep an open mind and allow that exploration and

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curiosity to happen and almost sort of loosen off the rules slightly because some settings have got quite strict rules of what you can use and where and when. And sometimes it takes someone else coming in to sort of go, why, why do you do that? Let's do that over here. You let's make the messy part this part of the room or everywhere around. And it's kind of like letting things happen and seeing what happens and allowing them to sort of take over the space that they're in.

Yeah, I love that, allowing, that's a really good word for it. Well, she sometimes they have to be quite brave to do that. Yeah. So it's sort being brave and sort of letting go a little bit of the reins and seeing what comes out of it in the end and it will be worth it. Yeah, that's really beautiful. Yeah, just trying not to be too precious about what your students are going to create and also, you know, encourage that in the students to explore.

bravely without being too fearful of what might come out. I think, yeah, I wouldn't have it any other way, but I think to maybe it's to some artists and tutors, it might be quite a challenge to, that you're not in control of what your students are going to output. And there are moments, like I said, where you go, what you're doing.

But you just keep quiet. Let's let them go. Because if you ask them what they do in their pro-experience, I don't know, isn't that what we're supposed to be doing? Yeah, learning and development for everyone in there, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. No, I think that's really beautiful and a lovely place to end on a call for bravery in artists and in facilitators alike. Yeah. So let's all be brave and co-create and let other people.

put white paint on their canvases. Come to an agreement. Come to an agreement, yes. brilliant. Well, Dan and Rachel, thank you so much for coming into our lovely podcast studio. It's been an absolute delight and really interesting to talk to you. So thank you for being here. Thank you.

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You've been listening to the I Am An Artist podcast from Inspire Culture Learning and Libraries. I Am An Artist is the second stage of our I Am A Creator programme, which is funded by investment from Arts Council England through our status as a national portfolio organisation. To find out more about the project, our artists, the audiences who took part and the outcomes, you can visit our website at inspireculture.org.uk forward slash I Am An Artist.