Inspire Culture You are listening to the I Am A Storyteller podcast from Inspire Culture Learning and Libraries. This podcast is hosted by Annie Warren. During the series, Annie talks to a storyteller or storytellers from the project and also members of the Inspire team in a bid to share valuable insights and learning gained from the project. Hi, and welcome to episode three of the I Am A Storyteller podcast.

I'm your host, Annie Warren, and today I'll be talking to IMA storytellers, Nikki Rafferty, who worked with a special educational needs and disability school as part of the project. Nikki Rafferty trained as an actor in the early 90s and was working locally with the Nottingham Playhouse Theatre and Education Company. She discovered storytelling and was blown away by it. Over the following decades, Nikki's storytelling has taken her into schools, libraries, theatres, care homes, hospices, museums and galleries. And she regularly works with local authorities and the National Trust.

Nikki recently concluded a five-year reminiscence project with the Sherwood Forest Trust and delivered the outreach element of the Leaves of Southwall Restoration Project at the Southwall Minster. She is currently the storyteller with the reawakening St. Mary Magdalene Restoration Project in Newark. Storytelling is at the heart of everything Nikki does. She believes it is powerful, agile and versatile and can be applied in many different contexts. Nikki works with a range of organizations, creating and delivering bespoke storytelling packages to bring about specific outcomes and says, whether the objective is empowering others to tell stories, improving literacy, speech and language supports, mental wellbeing, memory recall, historical character telling, or simply engaging an audience and having fun storytelling works. As part of the I am a Storyteller project, worked with Bracken Hill School in Kirkby in Ashfield. 

Welcome to the studio, Nikki. It's so lovely to have you here. 
It's so lovely to be here, Annie. 
So I'd just like to start by setting the scene a little bit and asking you to talk to us a bit about the work that you did with your group.

I went into this school and I had a wonderful experience. The school itself is lovely. From the minute you walk in, it's really warm and calm and creative. There's lots of creative stuff going on everywhere. You can hear music and see kids drawing. And also, I kind of enjoyed watching how the teachers interacted with the children. No matter what was going on, nothing seemed to faze them. A lot of humour, a lot of banter.
Yeah, it was a fun environment on the whole. It was a fun place to be. 

It sounds really friendly and really nice. was. So did you have a bigger group, a smaller group? 

I had a small group. Lovely. I know. Eight. Well, one day I had nine. And I'll tell you about that. But mostly I had eight children. I thought there would be 10, but each child was given the option as to whether they wanted to be part of it. And two chose not to. So I had eight and the teachers didn't seem to mind that the two, those children chose not to, so I just rolled with it. I took in loads of props and I took in these props thinking, I'll see if they want to choose something to have a story about. So I brought out this basket of stuff and they dived on it and all grabbed something. And then for the rest of that week, they all chose the same thing every day. Yeah, and that hadn't been my plan, but that's what happened. 

So I told you that there was two that didn't that chose not to come. one of, in the very first visit, I sort of chatted to most of them, those that seemed open to me sitting and chatting with them. I did, and I learned a little bit about them. And there were a couple that, you know, I was like, oh no, I could just feel that I wasn't welcome into their space. So I didn't push it. And then towards the end of that visit, I I'll tell a story because I can pick up a lot from how a group responds to a story. 

And one of the that one of the boys I chatted to had talked about this monkey that he had and he was drawing a monkey. So I told a monkey story. I felt like it was the natural story to tell in that environment. And it was a story about friendship and about difficult choices. And there is a bit in the story where one of the characters has a difficult choice to make and we'd probably all agree that he makes the wrong choice.

So I've been telling this and I felt like I had eye contact with everybody but this one child was in the corner with headphones on playing with Lego and seemingly utterly disengaged from what was going on and because that seemed to be okay, I just accepted that. And he suddenly became furious and shouted at me, he shouldn't be doing that. Why are you saying he does that? I don't like that, that is wrong. And he was really angry, really angry about it. And he sort of came out of my peripheral vision, you know. And I said, well, I have to agree with you. I think you're right. And he went, well, don't say that. And I said, I think we'd probably all agree, you know, that is the wrong choice or not a choice that we would make. Shall we find out what happens? And then we can think about the other choices and how we could change that, how we could change this story or tell a story where somebody makes a different choice, a choice that you'd be happy with. I got permission to carry on and to finish the story but that was, I mean that was an immediate learning. You know, I assumed he wasn't even listening. So he's the one that didn't join, didn't come and join the group and they said to me, you know, they were fine about it or he doesn't like working in groups. And then in one of the sessions I was, we were busy making a story and he would be in the room next to us with another teacher and everybody's adding a little bit and I'm building it, I'm scribing like crazy because that was, I found that that was the best way to capture things and keep checking that I got what they wanted me to get. And he suddenly shouted, they have to look under the bed. He put his two pennies in from the other room. So he was listening. 

He's engaged. That's so interesting. So still engaging and still interested, even if not always able to directly participate. 

And even within the group, there were those that were more ready to share and those that were less able to do that. And it was how you facilitate that in that environment.

Yeah, so were there any kind of adaptations or modifications that you made as you went on to kind of include everyone? 

All the time. All the time. think, you know, I was reassured through the training that we did, you know, that this is all about process and there is no expectations and you and you try and keep that on board, but I'd seen the exhibitions, I'd seen the brilliant stuff that the other creators had come up with. So I'd sort of got that in the back of my mind that we have to find something in this, you know. But, you know, I had been reassured and I had taken on board that whatever we find, we can work with. So that is a great position to be in as an artist, you know, that you can really focus on process and then being able to engage and have a good time. 
You know, I have this idea of like, well, we do this and that will lead into that. And then I'll do that with them and that can lead to this. So I'd present something, they'd latch onto it, but they would not want to move on from it.

So, forget your schedule, forget that and just use whatever they are, whatever's gaining traction, work with that to give them what you need to give them in order to help them to create really, to kind of work with whatever they bring. 

How did you find that as an artist? Was that challenging? Was it rewarding? 

I loved it. Yeah, did you? Loved it because it was just full of surprises. You know, one of the things that I discovered about working with the... Well, there are no right answers in their mind. So some things were so random and... Oh, this is a challenge, how are going to work with this? you know, so we would wrestle with finding our way through to make sure that everything that they suggested in the story, we were... We found a way to develop the narrative, including that contribution. And I loved that.

Because the stories were so unexpected to me. Yeah, and so much room for creativity as well, to work your creative muscle and recognise those patterns and move forward. 
Very playful. Yeah. Really playful. And also non-negotiable. Yeah. So, you know, this idea of co-creating, you know, it is co-creating in that we're starting from scratch, we don't know what we're going to find here and let's see what comes up. And so we are co-creating. But I couldn't impose my ideas. You know, whatever they come up with, that was it. It was non-negotiable. So that was different. I have found other children more persuadable. And, you know, these were very fixed in their ideas. And so the challenge was to, okay, well, well, then let's keep going with this. you know, I think being reassured at the outset that whatever came is what came, was hugely important to me enjoying the process. I wouldn't have done it differently because I couldn't have done it differently, but I didn't worry. Yeah, yeah, 

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah. I was really interested you mentioned like co-creation and I'm really interested in co-creation as you know, it's kind of at the heart of this project. I'm really interested in it as like a, a concept. This is maybe quite a difficult question, but I wonder if, like, what does co-creation kind of mean to you and how does it influence your creative process or how did it in this specific instance? 

Well, I think as a storyteller, you co-create a lot if you're story making. That kind of is what story making is as opposed to collaborating where you both come with your skills and you put them together and you see what's different on account of it. You know, so if I work with an artist, how does what they're drawing influence what I'm saying or if I'm working with a musician, you know so co-creating it, think, is different in my mind. Maybe I've got it wrong, but this is how it works in my mind. We're starting off with nothing and what is going to emerge here. But I did feel that it was very much facilitating their ideas, that my co-bit, my role in it was to hear it, check it, and pull it all together, making sure everybody contributed, making sure that people were happy with how it was going, finding ways to keep the creativity going. So that was more my role, I felt. 

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. You also mentioned there that you had some training as part of the project and I'm really interested in how that was and how it was being kind of part of a group of storytellers as well. 

That's good. Yeah, because I think as a freelancer, you're often on your own so it's always a bit exciting. And sometimes it's old friends as well. It was in this case, know, the people that I've worked with in the past. And so yeah, that's a bit of a treat actually. In fact, to be perfectly honest, training and being paid to attend training is a bit of a treat. I don't know if I should be saying that, but it is. I probably would have done it for nothing. And the training was good. you know, it's your time, isn't it? But it was good and it wasn't just good for this project actually. Even the day after we had a training session about working with people with Alzheimer's and I have a lot of experience I think in working with people with dementia. did a two-year research project and I trained activity coordinators to use storytelling in their practice and it's an area I feel really confident in but I learned through experience I've kind of learned how to respond and manage situations and keep them feeling safe and. But what I learned from that training was what's going on for them, what is literally happening to their brains and why they are saying and feeling the things that they are. And the day after it happened, I was in a care home that I've been into many times. In fact, it's part of this project actually, it's one Andy went into and I was doing a storytelling cafe and a lady wandered in and she was lost and she was looking for a book and she was waiting for a lift home. And of course I would always be sensitive and welcome. But do know what? I felt different getting what was going on for her. I felt much more confident. Oh, should we have a cup of tea while we're waiting? I, so that, so it's what I'm saying is the benefits were instant for me from that training. 

Yeah, I really agree with and relate to what you're saying about the idea that as a freelancer, it's not that common to be offered training, especially not that common to be paid for it. And then it just sounds like that this, was really useful training that had, as you said, not only instant effects, but kind of far reaching effects that you can use again. 

I actually think it was the best training I've ever done. Wow. I do, honestly. It was absolutely brilliant. It was. 

That's amazing. Yeah. That's fantastic.

Yeah, so we've talked a little bit about some of the challenges faced, like so you know, the very extreme reactions sometimes, but were there any challenges that you kind of, that were unexpected that came up for you? 

Yes, yes, several, yes. So I'll just think about some different examples now. So there was one boy who, as we were going around the circus, I tried lots of different games and exercises, generally it was fun and it was light, but I did make pretty much everything optional because they don't respond well to pressure and you can sense that and it is really important to keep the room feeling safe, you know. And he would just not, you know, just want it to pass on, want it to pass on, want it to pass on. And I would try different things, you know, would you like to start the story or is it anything that's popping? If it pops into your mind later, just, you know, just let me know. But he just didn't like it. And he'd really taken to a book that I took in about dragons. It's a book that I have had for decades, Dragonology, but my goodness me, he was really absorbed by this book. And he would just want to hold this book and look at the pages of this book. But he hadn't actually given very much. And I mentioned it to the teacher because after every session, I sat down with the teacher and talked about what had gone on and she had a lot to say about what had gone on. So I've got things to talk about there. going back to this, so he just didn't give. And then we were making a story and suddenly he started to tell a story. Not a bit of a story, not half story, just this fully formed, beautiful, deep, evolved, solved story. And I was so excited. I started to kind of write it down as fast as I could. I couldn't even read my own run writing at the end of it. I was writing so fast.

But while he's telling me, and I'm so thrilled and desperate to catch it, mayhem starts to break out because, you know, one boy's going, he's talking too much. He's hugging everything. We've got to, we've got, we want to get on without making our story, you know. And so how to manage that without losing him and losing this. So I said, why don't we illustrate the stories that we've found. And maybe in drawing them, we'll get other ideas as well. imagine that the stories are in a book and these can be the pictures to go, the stories. And they were all quite happy that I covered the whole floor in paper and chucked a bucket of pens over it. And they were all thrilled with that. And so while they were busy, I was able to sit with him and really make sure that I was getting it right. Because when I got it wrong, he told me, he was very clear that this was his story. And at one point, something wasn't quite making sense to me. And I tried to kind of suggest different things, but he was absolutely having none of it. And we found a way to make it work. And that story is one of the stories that came out at the end. I saved that and I fed it back to him and he was thrilled. But he found things in that book and it was all inspired by a dragon map in the book. And I had to go back and look at it and thought I'd never notice the details of the things that he'd picked up on. And so he's really seen it, he's really studied it and seen it. And you know, when you were saying, you know, maybe he thought he wasn't engaging so much to start with, he's just taking in all of that minute detail, like forming it. 

That's really interesting. I think that's really interesting how you're managing, obviously getting everyone involved and getting everyone, having every, letting everyone have the chance to say their bit in full, but also, you know, keeping everyone engaged while someone else has their moment to express. That's really interesting and fascinating. 

I tried to do this thing that the libraries wanted me to do, know, gather feedback. That was quite hard, actually, getting feedback. And I noticed on this boy's card, the one that had been really cross-spouted, that there was a list of faces, and he'd put an in-betweeny face as opposed to his usual, like, I love stories face.

And I said, oh, you're not happy today? And went, no, because somebody talked too much. It's very clear that he'd not been happy about that. you know, so I suppose that was a challenge. You know, the keeping everybody happy, because sometimes their needs were conflicting. I was telling a story where there was an explosion and I had this idea to bring a balloon in and we could make the balloon explode. And they were all getting really excited by this and they were anticipating what was coming. But one girl was shrinking and her fingers had gone in her ears. And so I sort of eased off the popping of it and they picked up, no, no, no, pop it, pop it, pop it. And I'm not sure she's very happy about this. And they were kind of really wrestling with not wanting to let it go. And then one of the boys said, but it's much better to be kind and everybody enjoy it. He came up with the solution. Yeah. And I said, about if I let it go and it goes, you know, all around the room? That worked fine. And then we all had to have balloons and we all had to let them go several times. know, it took on a whole life of its own and became a whole other story. yeah, so there was a time, there were times when what was thrilling and exciting for some was more than another could cope with. And what was focused and calm and detailed and interesting they wanted to move on from. So it's just about tuning into all of them and kind of just keep spinning those plates. 

Yeah, definitely. And I feel like that's something that will come up with many different kinds of groups. Obviously this was a SEND group. Yes, exactly. But are always individuals coming into a room. So in any group, it's always about balancing everyone's needs. 

And a lot was the same as it always is. A lot was just as it always is. I think the biggest asset that I had and was really grateful that I had was just stories to draw on because it meant that whatever they came up with in discussions, I had a story that would reflect what we've been talking about. So there was one girl that said to me, I love this, Nikki. And I said, ooh, what do you love about it? Thinking I could get a word for the feedback. And she went, this.it and I could feel the what she was trying to say in her body and in her voice but I I then told a story about a dragon who's lonely and feels like he's the last of his kind and nobody understands him and they fear him and all he wants to do is share his stories and and he finds a way through a shepherd boy to tell stories to the village and and they and he tells stories that are thrilling and exciting stories that are calming and romantic stories love stories and and through telling this story to the group, I was trying to give her the language to explain what it was that she was feeling and also what was making her feel like that. Is it the creating and the excitement? Is it the calm, the soothing? What is it that you're actually, what is it that is making you love this? And afterwards, not straight away afterwards, about two sessions later, she said, I love the way it makes me feel like I'm just cosy. And I felt, oh, that's what I wanted. 

Yeah, that's the story. 

That's what I wanted. 

That's so lovely. I mean, you've absolutely just touched on it there, but my next question was going to be about what you've enjoyed most or what was the most rewarding aspect for you, but maybe that was it. 

Oh, it was just fun. It was a lot of fun.

So I look forward to it every day and when I arrive they'd be like squealing, know, like, oh it's Nicky, it's Nicky, you know, and they were really excited about it and that's, you know, that's real for them and one of them said to me, oh it's Nicky, you're going to do more of them books, what, come out of your mouth? I love that. So I think they've had more books than storytelling. 

What a lovely way to describe storytelling. 

Books that come out of your mouth. That's so good. I love that. 
But there were also times and I was thinking about this, there were times where I felt what I was doing wasn't working. And so one of the things I did learn was, it go. Let it go that this is gaining no traction. In fact, I'm losing them. I am losing them. And there were little things that I felt brought them back, you know.

So in the first instance, when I'd taken this basket of stuff thinking they could choose a thing and they all take something, therefore I suddenly had to tell a lot of stories, but that was brilliant because without planning to, what it meant was I could demonstrate that you can tell a story about anything. There are stories about anything and everything and we can do what we like. And then in the story making game that we played afterwards, a lot of things that had been in the stories, I could see echoes of them in the story that they were creating.

And one of the things that I'd been thinking about after my meeting with them, they'd all been quite fixed on something that they shared with me, but they all seemed to have very separate interests. And what I felt that did was it gave them shared references, that although they'd experienced the stories individually for themselves and different things attached to them, know, from the story, there were different hooks for each of them.


They'd also had a shared experience. They'd all experienced the same story. So it felt that they became quite cohesive as a group and the story making actually really flowed and everybody had something to say apart from this one boy who then eventually had everything to say and it was fun. 

No, that's just really lovely. That's just like that, that like connection between them and also you as well. Like that sounds like that was really facilitated in a really lovely way. I really love that. 

Well, I thought initially I might have to work with what they were interested in. Yeah. I did wonder if that would be the case. And after I'd met them, I made loads of notes about everything that they'd said. And I wrote a little poem about it so that when I went in the next day, you know, I could make them laugh. And that's how I discovered they really liked rhyming.

When I was doing all the different stories, I made sure that there were interactive stories, there were rhyming stories, were stories with sound effects, there were stories with actions, you know. And I could read from that the things that they enjoyed and responded really well to. And one of the things that worked brilliantly, if I felt that I was losing them, was getting an action and rhyming story or an action and rhyming activity. It's somehow really brought them together and they loved it so much. They loved rhyming words so much and they loved doing actions so much that it could immediately refocus the whole group. 

What a brilliant tool for your toolbox to always have like a touch point to come back to. Yeah, it's really helpful. I think, yeah, we've kind of touched on it already again, but my final question for you is, do you have any advice that you would give? Any other workshop facilitators who are maybe looking to work with similar groups. Maybe having that little touchstone activity 

I suppose sometimes it's hard to know what you've learned, isn't it? Except I can say that I would be more confident going in having done this. So therefore what's changed for me is that I know that they're all different, that there isn't a one size fits all. Don't hold on to any idea of how you need to do something, just listen, give them space, don't rush them. If they're taking longer than you expected or hoped or planned, it doesn't matter because things are happening. The work is happening, the process is taking place and what you get is what you were always meant to get. So give them space, be very flexible and patient. Don't worry because they will pick up on that. Be free to enjoy it because they will enjoy you enjoying it because you're in it together then. And be kind, you know, I mean, I know that sounds really basic, but I think sometimes their reactions were intense and it's okay to just be focused on making them feel safe when that happens. 

Nikki, that's such a lovely note to end on. I have so much enjoyed talking with you and finding out all about your experiences. They're just fascinating. So yeah, thank you so much for coming in and sharing your time and your experiences with us. was just lovely.


You've been listening to the I Am A Storyteller podcast from Inspire Culture Learning and Libraries. I Am A Storyteller is the third stage of our I Am A Creator program, which is funded by investment from Arts Council England through our status as a national portfolio organization. To find out more about the project, our storytellers, the audiences who took part and the outcomes, you can visit our website at inspireculture.org.uk forward slash I Am A Storyteller.